RE: [BDSM-LegalIssues] Re: New book -- good but disturbing
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cadenas_sd
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 12:29 PM
> --- In BDSM-LegalIssues@
> <malc@...> wrote:
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: cadenas_sd
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 10:19 PM
> >
> > > What is left is you *defending* these policies. And that may have
> > > happened in the heat of the discussion.
> >
> > I'd point out that NO-ONE, not you, and not Wiseman, has
> offered much
> > of an alternative.
>
> How about just simply saying "my job is to enforce these
> policies even though I disagree with them" rather than
> emphatically stating that she advocates these policies.
The snag is that you, and Wiseman, seem to be operating on the assumption
that the only scenarios are the extreme ones, and further that the
firing/not hiring decisions are formulaic -- Wiseman's "get arrested, lose
your job, someone else gets arrested" all the course of a day or so.
You are not giving the humans in the loop any credit at all, despite what
Leigha actually wrote, in which she makes it clear that the decisions are
based on circumstances.
> > > Leigha, can you state unequivocally "I believe it is
> inappropriate
> > > for employers to use any arrest for an allegation of a sexual
> > > offense to make personnel decisions before a trial has been
> > > completed?"
> >
> > Cadenas, can _you_ state unequivocally "I believe that
> empoyers should
> > be required to retain an employee charged with the most
> opprobrius of
> > crimes for as long as it takes to fully adjudicate such charges no
> > matter what publicity may occur"?
>
> You are building a straw man here. I asked "use any arrest to
> make a decision". How did you arrive here at "required to
> retain" is a mystery to me. Nobody asked for that! The point
> is simply that an arrest is not evidence of wrongdoing and
> should not be a factor in the decision.
Sorry, but there's no straw man: what I described is the inevitable
consequence of what you asked for.
You are explicitly asking for the fact of an arrest for (say) paedophile
assault to be excluded from personnel decisions before the trial is
completed.
So the big "mystery to you" is blindingly obvious: because you can't use the
fact of the arrest for personnel decisions until the trial, you can't use
the fact of the arrest as grounds to fire the individual until the trial is
complete, and assuming that in all other respects the individual is an
adequate employee, you are requiring the company to retain the individual.
There's NO quibble room here, Cadenas. You just don't seem to have thought
through the boundary conditions of what you're asking for.
> > > Can you state unequivocally that you will work towards
> law changes
> > > that will outlaw using any arrest record for sexual offenses for
> > > personnel decisions?
> >
> > That's just offensive, Cadenas. Why should _anyone_ agree to "work
> > towards" anything just because you want them to?
>
> How about, because that's why the NCSF exists?
>
> From the NCSF Mission statement:
>
> >>
> The National Coalition for Sexual Freedom is a national
> organization committed to creating a political, legal, and
> social environment in the United States that advances equal
> rights of consenting adults who practice forms of alternative
> sexual expression.
> <<
Is the word "equal" perhaps confusing you?
I suspect there's an assumption that BDSM practitioners and other sexual
minorities are somehow significantly more prone to arrest than others. If
so, I'd _love_ to see some evidence in support of that!
Beyond that, you're making assumptions that "arrest = firing" and "arrest =
not hiring", for all values of "arrest" in all circumstances and that in no
scenario could an employee or candidate mitigate the situation by (e.g.)
attaching a note to form consenting to the investigation that discloses the
details of the arrest and the disposition, etc.
> > > Can you state unequivocally, regardless of your employer's actual
> > > policies, that the NCSF, and you personally, believe that
> the arrest
> > > records for the following people should not be used for any
> > > personnel
> > > decisions:
> > >
> > > - The San Diego Six
> > > - Genarlow Wilson
> > > - Lawrence and Garner (of Lawrence v Texas)
> >
> > If you'd pause your rush to (mis-)judgment, maybe you'd notice that
> > perhaps hiring (say) one of the SD Six as a child care
> specialist in a
> > conservative community may not make good commercial sense,
> never mind
> > the social justice issue?
>
> Your viewpoint is certainly legitimate, and I don't have a
> problem with it since you are, as far as I know, not
> affiliated with the NCSF.
>
> But in the case of Leigha, that's exactly the whole point of
> the matter! The NCSF claims to work towards eliminating
> exactly that kind of "commercial-
> At least I thought so until I read her comments here.
Again, ONLY if the cause of the arrest is "alternative sexuality"-related.
Otherwise, the NCSF mission statement is silent.
Look, Leigha KNOWS the situations and specifics under which people were not
hired and fired. Obviously, it would be inappropriate for her to detail
them, but don't you think it might be courteous to, say, ASK how she feels /
what she'd do if the not-hiring/firing was for a sexuality-related arrest?
We know (I hope) that a number of states have mandatory arrest laws for
domestic violence calls (if the police show up, someone gets arrested). I
do rather suspect that an arret of that sort would be considered differently
than (say) the arrest of Kenneth Leay or Ted Kaczinsky!
> Again, from the NCSF Mission statement:
>
> >>
> The National Coalition for Sexual Freedom is a national
> organization committed to creating a political, legal, and
> social environment in the United States that advances equal
> rights of consenting adults who practice forms of alternative
> sexual expression.
> <<
Again, EQUAL RIGHTS does not mean SPECIAL RIGHTS.
Malc.
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posted by Annja Sue at
8:21 PM
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