How to fill in a student loan form

1.: Offer: 3rd grade workbook

Posted by: "mrsdude256" fabricaholic@sbcglobal.net mrsdude256

Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:21 am (PST)

Brighter Child Daily Learning Drills. The first couple pages in each
section are done. Child accelerated past the material. Pick up in
Zeeland. Please don't reply with responses like 'when and where can I
pick this up" as I find that to be rude. Pick up in Zeeland, preferably
this morning.

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2.: Wanted: Any cake decorating stuff

Posted by: "torngajr" torngajr@yahoo.com torngajr

Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:22 am (PST)

I am looking for any type of cake decorating stuff. I make birthday
cakes, baby shower cakes etc for friends all the time. I do it for fun
and don't really charge anyone other then having them pay for the
supplies so it would be nice to have a little more on hand for when I
do make my next cake.

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3.: Wanted: lamps

Posted by: "dyez69" dyez69@yahoo.com dyez69

Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:22 am (PST)

Looking for a matching set of table lamps. I'm also looking for a floor
lamp as well.

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4.: Wanted: Inspirational books , and easy to read bible with nice cover

Posted by: "dyez69" dyez69@yahoo.com dyez69

Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:22 am (PST)

I'm looking for any inspirational books to read. I'm also looking for a
nice easy to read bible, with a case to hold paper and pens.

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5.: Re: WANTED: BOARD GAMES, OR FAMILY GAMES

Posted by: "dyez69" dyez69@yahoo.com dyez69

Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:22 am (PST)

I'm looking for family games in good condition. Some examples of games
i'm looking for are...

Mad gab
uno cards
Apples to Apples
scrable
master mind

These are to name a few. If you have any of these games or any not
listed and your wanting to get rid of them please let me know
Thanks

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6.: Re: Wanted--- Digital Camera

Posted by: "dyez69" dyez69@yahoo.com dyez69

Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:22 am (PST)

I'm looking for a Digital camera in very good condition. If you have a
NIKON 8.1, and you want to upgrade i'll be happy to take this off your
hands. If not I really need a camera it doesnt matter what kind.

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7.: wanted: end table

Posted by: "j_adams1982" j_adams1982@yahoo.com j_adams1982

Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:20 am (PST)

looking for a small end table

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8.: towel/cds/coffee mug gone, makeup brushes still available! thanks!

Posted by: "lisa_dyk" lisa_dyk@yahoo.com lisa_dyk

Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:21 am (PST)

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9.: wanted - playstation 1 or 2 games for my son

Posted by: "dat_bigj" dat_bigj@yahoo.com dat_bigj

Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:21 am (PST)

hi i was seeing if any one had any games they like to get rid of. i
would be happy to pick up right away, thanks in advance

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10.: Offer: Juniors Jeans (Girls) size 5-8

Posted by: "Michelle Bender" mibender@chartermi.net dreamsinblu

Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:58 am (PST)

I found these stuffed in the back of my daughters closet, as they don't fit her anymore. Must take all, freecycle any that don't fit. Pick up Northside of Holland (near Butternut/Riley).

Ralph Lauren size 7/8. No belt loops - don't know what you call that style.

Arizona Jean Co. size 5, seem to have a slight flare leg.

YMI Jeanwear. size 5. Lots of pockets and fading on the them (bought new that way)

Express Jeans, size 5/6 Long

Aeropostle size 5/6 short. Not jeans, tan pants.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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11.: Thank you Andrew Hoekstra

Posted by: "troll" camerons1grandma@yahoo.com camerons1grandma

Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:05 pm (PST)

Thank you for the book shelves for my sewing room it works great
very gracious
Tina

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12.: Taken: Juniors Jeans (Girls) size 5-8

Posted by: "Michelle Bender" mibender@chartermi.net dreamsinblu

Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:11 pm (PST)

Thanks for the quick reply.
Michelle

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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13.1.: offer

Posted by: "troll" camerons1grandma@yahoo.com camerons1grandma

Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:43 pm (PST)

there was a posting someone wated wire hangers for their kids to do
crafts, would the person who wanted them please contact me,I have a box
full of them to give away
Thank you

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14.: taken:three boxes of misc items

Posted by: "mtboyles2" mtboyles2@yahoo.com mtboyles2

Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:44 pm (PST)

thanks for the quick pick-up

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15.: Offer: Queen mattress/boxsprings

Posted by: "Heidi Randall" ot4lauren@yahoo.com ot4lauren

Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:47 pm (PST)

Used Q. size mattress and boxsprings available Thursday - must be picked up Thursday also.
Heidi
No. side of Holland

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16.: Offer plastic containers(butter, sour cream etc..

Posted by: "Peg" collectpenguins@yahoo.com collectpenguins

Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:48 pm (PST)

I have a plastic meijer bag of plastic containers from food items like butter, sour cream, cottage cheese etc.....
They all have lids.

The lids all fit something but they ALL may not match. When I use these type of containers for leftovers, its easier for me to remember its a leftover item in the container -Not whats on the label if I have a mis matched lid on it. Anyway I saved a bunch for over the holidays so I could send food home with everyone and still have many left over.
There are approx 14 containers with lids. Free to anyone that would be interested,... I usually throw these away but thought Id see if anyone may be interested in them first.
thank

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17.: offer-Christmas stuff

Posted by: "Beth T." glorybabies3@gmail.com glorybabies3

Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:13 pm (PST)

I have the following to offer

1.Christmas stocking--in like new condition. This is dark green with
red cuff at top with red poinsettias on stocking. It is pretty, but I
now have 4 that match for my kids so I don't need this one.
2. 2 Christmas tins-- one round and flatter, one more like a cylinder
about 6 inches tall or so.
3. 3 strands of white icicle lights. The kind people hang along the
roof line of their house and the light hang down like icicles.
4. several boxes of Christmas cards
5. a gold metal sleigh decoration...about a 15 inches long or so and 6
inches wide. I used to put some Christmas ivy in it on my table in the
foyer.
6. 3 small red felt bows with the twisty tie on back to put on a wreath
or garland outside

Pick up is on the north side of Holland off Butternut near New Holland.
Please email with when you would like to pick up. I can leave it on my
porch for you, so any time is fine.... I've just learned that those who
have a plan for pick up tend to show up!
Beth

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18.: found: i found wire hangers thanks so much

Posted by: "crazyfocker02" crazyfocker02@yahoo.com crazyfocker02

Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:33 pm (PST)

still looking for everything else

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19.: Wanted: DVD player or DVD/VHS combo player

Posted by: "firelamp55" firelamp55@yahoo.com firelamp55

Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:33 pm (PST)

Looking for either a regular DVD player or a combination DVD and VHS
player.

Coopersville thanks

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20.: Offered: Twin bed frame with headboard

Posted by: "firelamp55" firelamp55@yahoo.com firelamp55

Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:33 pm (PST)

Bed frame only. No mattress. Frame is woodboard with a pine grain.
Coopersville. Contact via email with questions and for particulars.

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21.: kids clothing wanted

Posted by: "Heather" schultzheatherm@gmail.com boredatworkagain49423

Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:21 pm (PST)

Hi,

I am looking for boys clothing in 24 months and up.

Girls clothing in size 10/12 and up.

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22.: wanted: things for a new apartment

Posted by: "Miiko Delaney" koo_laids_a_pimptress@yahoo.com koo_laids_a_pimptress

Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:22 pm (PST)

i am wanting some help in getting things for my new apartment i am
going to bed moving in to here in the next week or so the only things
i have are my childrens beds and there clothes and toys the things i
am needing is a table chairs furniture a full size bed for me and my
boyfriend if you have anything that would help us that would be great
thanks and if you have any baby boy things that would help to we just
had a lil boy and dont have much for him

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23.: wanted: baby things in holland

Posted by: "char_kossen" char_kossen@yahoo.com char_kossen

Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:50 pm (PST)

after 14 years a new baby? in need of everything please respond
and thank you from this grandma

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24.: wanted-Little Tikes Kitchen

Posted by: "Heather" schultzheatherm@gmail.com boredatworkagain49423

Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:50 pm (PST)

I am looking for a little tikes kitchen that would be ok for a little
boy-otherwords, nothing girly! I dont have much room, so the smaller
the better!

Thanks!

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25.: outside toys

Posted by: "Heather" schultzheatherm@gmail.com boredatworkagain49423

Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:50 pm (PST)

I am in need of some toys for outside for a little boy who will be 2 in
April. Looking for ride on toys, sand boxes, etc.

Thanks for looking!

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RE: [WestMichiganRope] January Rope Meeting

2008-01-12T18:09:00.000-08:00

OK - you lost us there....what is a townhouse room,
cost and where do we find such a beast?Any suggestions
in the GR area

Greg

--- Master Sar <Master@houseofsar.com> wrote:

> Tal Group,
>
> We will be there wherever "there" is. I would be
> willing to donate towards
> the cost of the room. What about going back to the
> old days and checking out
> a townhouse room at a hotel?
>
> Be Well
>
> Sar
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: WestMichiganRope@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:WestMichiganRope@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of samos_rm
> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 7:45 PM
> To: WestMichiganRope@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [WestMichiganRope] January Rope Meeting
>
> I spoke with Greg tonight and he informs me that we
> have NO host for
> this month's meeting. If somebody is willing to
> host this month, we
> need to knos ASAP!! We are also open to renting the
> same facilities
> that we used for the GRUE event but ONLY if we have
> sufficient
> attendence to keep the cost down to an absolute
> minimum. The cost of
> the facility is $100.00 for a half day so we would
> need a minimum of 15-
> 20 people planning to attend. Either way, we need
> feedback as soon as
> possible.
>
> A group, any group is only as good as it's members.
> We've had an
> awesome group so far, let's keep it going strong
> this year and for many
> years to come.
>
> Samos
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.1/1220 -
> Release Date: 1/11/2008
> 6:09 PM
>
>
>

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[WestMichiganRope] Re: January Rope Meeting

2008-01-12T03:16:00.001-08:00

One of the things that I should have mentioned in my original posting
is that if you are intending to attend the rope meeitng on the
19th......... Please email Greg. This way there is less chance that
somebody is missed as we only have one point of contact. I don't do
this to put all the burden on Greg, but because he is the one with
the spread sheet on who has or has not attended meetings, who has or
has not filled out forms and it just works out better.

Thanks,

Samos

--- In WestMichiganRope@yahoogroups.com, "samos_rm" <samos_rm@...>
wrote:
>
> I spoke with Greg tonight and he informs me that we have NO host
for
> this month's meeting. If somebody is willing to host this month,
we
> need to knos ASAP!! We are also open to renting the same
facilities
> that we used for the GRUE event but ONLY if we have sufficient
> attendence to keep the cost down to an absolute minimum. The cost
of
> the facility is $100.00 for a half day so we would need a minimum
of 15-
> 20 people planning to attend. Either way, we need feedback as soon
as
> possible.
>
> A group, any group is only as good as it's members. We've had an
> awesome group so far, let's keep it going strong this year and for
many
> years to come.
>
> Samos
>

__._,_.___

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[WestMichiganRope] Re: January Rope Meeting

2008-01-12T03:08:00.000-08:00

That's totally understandable holly as we have the same problem
here. I would also love to host some meetings, we just don't have
the space here either. I assure you, my posting was not intended to
make anybody feel guilty about not hosting. Other than a dish to
pass (which BTW is still optional) and the price of gas, we've been
doing our best to keep these meeting costs to a minimum. We even try
to move the meeting locations around so that nobody is consistently
paying high gas prices and traveling forever to get to all of the
meetings. In fact, we've even encouraged carpooling for those who
can't afford the price of the gas. Our desire is that everybody
attending want to learn, that nobody feel left out and that it be a
sharing of knowledge by all. We feel that even the newest member has
something to contribute; a tip or trick that they picked up on.
Something that was proven correct at one of the classes on
biomechanics and rope.

Samos

--- In WestMichiganRope@yahoogroups.com, "holly_pop14"
<holly_pop14@...> wrote:
>
> I wish we could host but one bedroom apartments aren't very
> accomodating! We are for sure coming and would be more than willing
> to chip in a 'cover charge' to help with the cost if we need to get
a
> facility.
>
> Adam and holly.
>
> --- In WestMichiganRope@yahoogroups.com, "samos_rm" <samos_rm@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I spoke with Greg tonight and he informs me that we have NO host
> for
> > this month's meeting. If somebody is willing to host this month,
> we
> > need to knos ASAP!! We are also open to renting the same
> facilities
> > that we used for the GRUE event but ONLY if we have sufficient
> > attendence to keep the cost down to an absolute minimum. The
cost
> of
> > the facility is $100.00 for a half day so we would need a minimum
> of 15-
> > 20 people planning to attend. Either way, we need feedback as
soon
> as
> > possible.
> >
> > A group, any group is only as good as it's members. We've had an
> > awesome group so far, let's keep it going strong this year and
for
> many
> > years to come.
> >
> > Samos
> >
>

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[HollandFreecycle] Digest Number 3055

2008-01-12T02:56:00.000-08:00

Messages In This Digest (17 Messages)

1.: Thank You Jenni21496 From: crash51683

2a.: Offer: formula coupons From: jul4_1990

3a.: Thank you From: troll

4.: wanted: baby food cook book(s) From: jennabekah77

5.: wanted: nursing cover and/or baby books From: jennabekah77

6.: wanted: breathable baby crib bumper From: jennabekah77

7.: drawer liners are PPU. thanks! From: lisa_dyk

8.: wanted: kids toy vacuum cleaner From: lisa_dyk

9.: free: random items From: lisa_dyk

10.: Offer: Huggies coupons From: llveenstra

11a.: wanted: clothing From: austinjay2003

12.: Wanted: Toddler Girl toys for Church Nursery. From: babyondrea2

13.: PPU: Huggies Coupons From: llveenstra

14.: wanted: twin bed sheets for boys From: donatelife05

15.: Offfer: Eureka Vacuum Bags From: mrsdude256

16.: WANTED: RECORD PLAYER From: bakes4545

17a.: Taken: Sewing Machine From: linrlan

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Messages

1.: Thank You Jenni21496

Posted by: "crash51683" crash51683@yahoo.com crash51683

Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:41 am (PST)

Jenny thank you so much for the items that you gave me...they are
greatly appreciated and will be used well!!!

crash51683

Leslie

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2a.: Offer: formula coupons

Posted by: "jul4_1990" johnnsusan@allcom.net jul4_1990

Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:58 am (PST)

Had a baby recently and the formula coupons are starting to come and
I'm not using formula right now so they are up for grabs. I have two
$8.00 off Nestle Good Start formula. They both expire on 4/15/2008 so
you would have plenty of time to use them. Pick up would be in
Zeeland or I would consider a SASE too.

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3a.: Thank you

Posted by: "troll" camerons1grandma@yahoo.com camerons1grandma

Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:14 am (PST)

Thank you Parker Taylor for items to help family who lost everything in
a fire ....graciousley appriciated much thanks

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4.: wanted: baby food cook book(s)

Posted by: "jennabekah77" jennabekah77@yahoo.com jennabekah77

Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:14 am (PST)

i would like to start making my own baby food. if anyone has any cook
books/recipes for this, please let me know!

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5.: wanted: nursing cover and/or baby books

Posted by: "jennabekah77" jennabekah77@yahoo.com jennabekah77

Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:14 am (PST)

i am looking for a Bebe Au Lait Nursing cover and any childrens books,
especially for infants/babies, but anything is desirable.

thanks! am having fun with all this new parenting stuff!

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6.: wanted: breathable baby crib bumper

Posted by: "jennabekah77" jennabekah77@yahoo.com jennabekah77

Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:14 am (PST)

would love green, pink or white if anyone has one available. thanks!

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7.: drawer liners are PPU. thanks!

Posted by: "lisa_dyk" lisa_dyk@yahoo.com lisa_dyk

Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:14 am (PST)

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8.: wanted: kids toy vacuum cleaner

Posted by: "lisa_dyk" lisa_dyk@yahoo.com lisa_dyk

Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:15 am (PST)

My Son is driving me crazy when I try to clean so I thought if he had
his own vacuum it would make my job more tolerable. I thought I would
check if anyone has one they want to get rid of or sell for cheap
before I buy one. I can pick up pretty much any where!
thanks for reading,
Lisa

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9.: free: random items

Posted by: "lisa_dyk" lisa_dyk@yahoo.com lisa_dyk

Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:15 am (PST)

Cleaning out drawers.. random items for free. I live in Holland

-silver insulated coffee carrier, says Spectrum Health, never used

-Bright blue beach towel, says INNOTEC in small embroidered letters,
no holes or rips, I just have WAY to many

-makeup brushes and advanced Night repair solution (sample bottle)
from Estee Lauder, neither used, brushes still in packaging

-CDs
--Jay Z life and times of S. carter
--Usher My Way-clean version
--Ja Rule Venni Vetti Vecci
--Third Eye Blind 3b
--Matchbox 20 yourself or someone like you
--Will Smith Big Willie Style
--Brian Mcknight Back at one

let me know if you want any or all
thanks
Lisa

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10.: Offer: Huggies coupons

Posted by: "llveenstra" llveenstra@yahoo.com llveenstra

Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:19 pm (PST)

These came in the mail yesterday and I don't use Huggies:

$1.50 off diapers (2)
$2.00 off Pull-Ups
$1.50 off Pull-Ups
$1.00 off bath and body
$1.00 off "cleanteam"

Pickup in Zeeland near 104th and Riley

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11a.: wanted: clothing

Posted by: "austinjay2003" austinjay2003@yahoo.com austinjay2003

Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:20 pm (PST)

i am going to be starting a job next week. but i need the following
clothes to work there.

red collared/ polo shirst size (Xl and up)
black pants size Xl or 14 or 16
black shoes size 10 1/2 or 11
thanks in advance

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12.: Wanted: Toddler Girl toys for Church Nursery.

Posted by: "babyondrea2" babyondrea2@yahoo.com babyondrea2

Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:20 pm (PST)

We are starting a new church on the North Side of holland and are in
need of some toddler girl toys for the nursery. If any one is willing
to pass along their gently used girl toys I would be more than willing
to come and pick them up.

Thank you,
Dany

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13.: PPU: Huggies Coupons

Posted by: "llveenstra" llveenstra@yahoo.com llveenstra

Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:29 pm (PST)

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14.: wanted: twin bed sheets for boys

Posted by: "donatelife05" mom2threeboys@altelco.net donatelife05

Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:55 pm (PST)

Any boy appropriate colors will do...we have three boys, all in big boy
beds, and only 2 sheets! We only need the fitted sheets, but will take
both if you want to get rid of them together. Thanks!

Crystal

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15.: Offfer: Eureka Vacuum Bags

Posted by: "mrsdude256" fabricaholic@sbcglobal.net mrsdude256

Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:51 pm (PST)

2 packages of three. One package is open. Says style F & G. Will split
between 2 people. Pick up in Zeeland on Saturday morning.

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16.: WANTED: RECORD PLAYER

Posted by: "bakes4545" bakes4545@yahoo.com bakes4545

Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:18 pm (PST)

I got some records for Christmas but I don't have a record player.
I'll take anything that works! Thanksthanksthanks

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17a.: Taken: Sewing Machine

Posted by: "linrlan" lynnrl@charter.net linrlan

Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:18 pm (PST)

The sewing machine has been picked up.

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Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] A little quote from the book that was mentioned at the start.

2008-01-12T02:37:00.000-08:00

At 08:00 PM 1/11/2008, Duncan O'Neil wrote:
>No! The Constitution was amended with #18 and again amended with #21.

You really should do some research before making statements like that.
The statement I am referring to is the statement "No." It was a response to my
question " You mean the amendment repealing the amendment was not
repealing the amendment?"

You followed up the statement with your reason for making the statement.
You apparently did not read the text of the amendments quoted.

Amendment 21 and i quote

Section 1. The
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution>eighteenth
article of amendment to the
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_States>Constitution
of the United States is hereby <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeal>repealed.

Thus proving my assertion that the amendment repealing the amendment
was in fact repealing the amendment.

The text
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:21st_Amendment_Pg1of1_AC.jpg
(picture of the text from
a book)

-Vicki-

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Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] A little quote from the book that was mentioned at the start.

2008-01-12T02:27:00.000-08:00

At 07:59 PM 1/11/2008, Duncan O'Neil wrote:
>"Habeas Corpus is worth the paper it is printed on."
>
>Is that the way you think about the US Constitution?

Just making an observation. If you have no power to enforce the content
then it is just words on paper.

-Vicki-

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Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] A little quote from the book that was mentioned at the start.

2008-01-12T02:25:00.000-08:00

At 07:58 PM 1/11/2008, you wrote:
>Which currently sitting President is supposed to have said something
>like "the constitution is just paper"?
>
>(I am aware that this may be a myth? anyone able to confirm or not?)
>
>S H

Word on links thru google search say it was the current one.
Only aids and or people at the meeting(s) would be able to confirm this

One of the many links
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_7779.shtml

-Vicki-

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Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] A little quote from the book that was mentioned at the start.

2008-01-11T22:32:00.000-08:00

Thank you, Duncan. I was going to do that myself, this afternoon, but I
had to drive into Santa Rosa to get my books for this semester. (And
no, I am not taking any law courses. May I thank the Goddess for that.)

Domina

Duncan O'Neil wrote:
>
>
> Due process is not the same as Habeas Corpus
> Due Process - In criminal law, the constitutional guarantee that a
> defendant will receive a fair and impartial trial. In civil law, the
> legal rights of someone who confronts an adverse action threatening
> liberty or property.
> www.uscourts.gov/journalistguide/glossary.html
>
> Habeas Corpus - A prisoner files a petition for writ of habeas corpus in
> order to challenge the authority of the prison or jail warden to
> continue to hold him. http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm
> <http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm>
>
> Dov <dov@neonleatherjesus.net <mailto:dov%40neonleatherjesus.net>>
> wrote: Yes Duncan I do
> Its due process and before you start yelling for cites ROFLMAO
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus>
> http://www.lectlaw.com/def/h001.htm <http://www.lectlaw.com/def/h001.htm>
> http://www.commondreams.org/views07/0131-22.htm
> <http://www.commondreams.org/views07/0131-22.htm>
>
> Dov
> dov@neonleatherjesus.net <mailto:dov%40neonleatherjesus.net>
>
> On Jan 11, 2008, at 9:58 AM, Duncan O'Neil wrote:
>
> > Do you?
> >
> > Dov <dov@neonleatherjesus.net <mailto:dov%40neonleatherjesus.net>>
> wrote: You realize you just declared
> > yourself incompetent to discuss either
> > Do you even know what Habeas corpus is ??
> >
> > Dov
> > dov@neonleatherjesus.net <mailto:dov%40neonleatherjesus.net>
> >
> > On Jan 11, 2008, at 1:35 AM, Domina Lilith Corwyn wrote:
> >
> > > Oh, please. The law and the government are not the same thing.
> > > Related, yes, but not the same thing.
> > >
> > > Domina
> > >
> > > Dov wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > If discussing the law and whats been done to it is verboten then
> > > there
> > > > isn't any point for this list at all.
> > > >
> > > > Dov
> > > > dov@neonleatherjesus.net <mailto:dov%40neonleatherjesus.net>
> <mailto:dov%40neonleatherjesus.net>
> > > >
> > > > On Jan 11, 2008, at 1:20 AM, Domina Lilith Corwyn wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Thank you, Gary. Politics discussed on this list is just going
> > > to get
> > > > > us a lot of nastiness. I don't like the Bush regime either, but
> > > this
> > > > > is
> > > > > not the place to discuss them.
> > > > >
> > > > > Domina
> > > > >
> > > > > Gary Charpentier wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Please drop the presidential politics.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 1/10/08 9:07 PM, "Dov" <dov@neonleatherjesus.net
> <mailto:dov%40neonleatherjesus.net>
> > > > <mailto:dov%40neonleatherjesus.net>
> > > > > > <mailto:dov%40neonleatherjesus.net>> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > The fact that we arent extending legal due process to
> > > immigrants
> > > > > or
> > > > > > > foreign nationals.
> > > > > > > Remember our president has repealed Habeas Corpus
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

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Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] A little quote from the book that was mentioned at the start.

2008-01-11T21:31:00.000-08:00

Gary your totally right! what party was in charge back when was of
course not the same party, hell the republican party in the time of
lincoln was the liberal party so yes not an issue.
Historical perspective aside the point which cant be pushed aside by
the argument "all things being equal" is that in the present tense
they just are not equal.

If your saying habeas corpus (Due process) doesn't exist for anyone
not a citizen, inside and outside this country then your wrong
historically. Up to this presidency our courts have staunchly held
that the constitution makes no distinction and that it behooves us to
extend it to all.

You've hit the nail on the head its not about THE PARTY its about the
PARTY in CHARGE, if the dems were doing this I would be yelling about
them as well and trust me i have.
No one is making this a PARTY issue other than anyone who seems to
have problems with there party being discussed, I am amazed by the
almost pavlovian response conservatives and republicans have these
days in that they seem fine to slander slam vilify and just out right
lie about anyone or any issue that isn't conservative yet scream
bloody murder an throw a moralistic conniption fit if you even so much
as discuss the party in charge.

This effectively sensitizes everyone and makes any form of discussion
about our country politics laws and what to do about them impossible.

Dov
dov@neonleatherjesus.net

On Jan 11, 2008, at 11:27 PM, Gary Charpentier wrote:

> Uh, maybe shouldn't be sticking the nose in here but ...
>
> Doesn't it not exist only for everyone outside the borders of the
> USA in the
> USA court system and for non-citizens inside the USA borders for the
> USA
> court system ...
> If and only if you get the President (or his designee) so pissed at
> you ...
> But that word "foreign" makes it tough for a US Citizen on US Soil
> to not
> have his writ heard.
>
> Which isn't quite the same as the situation in WWII where it just
> plain was
> terminated.
>
> (And for those who insist on it being a party issue, ask yourself
> was it the
> same party in power in WWII as now? See the problem isn't the party,
> the
> problem is the lust for power and the inability to see that if you
> get away
> with it, the guy who comes after you might use it for evil. It is an
> individual fallibility.)
>
> On 1/11/08 8:07 PM, "Dov" <dov@neonleatherjesus.net> wrote:
>
> > I dont make that claim Duncan it effectively no longer exists.
> > Do a web search read the links i sent ya.
> > Sorry santa is dead dude!
> >
> >
> > Dov
> > dov@neonleatherjesus.net
>
>

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Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] A little quote from the book that was mentioned at the start.

2008-01-11T20:27:00.000-08:00

Uh, maybe shouldn't be sticking the nose in here but ...

Doesn't it not exist only for everyone outside the borders of the USA in the
USA court system and for non-citizens inside the USA borders for the USA
court system ...
If and only if you get the President (or his designee) so pissed at you ...
But that word "foreign" makes it tough for a US Citizen on US Soil to not
have his writ heard.

Which isn't quite the same as the situation in WWII where it just plain was
terminated.

(And for those who insist on it being a party issue, ask yourself was it the
same party in power in WWII as now? See the problem isn't the party, the
problem is the lust for power and the inability to see that if you get away
with it, the guy who comes after you might use it for evil. It is an
individual fallibility.)

On 1/11/08 8:07 PM, "Dov" <dov@neonleatherjesus.net> wrote:

> I dont make that claim Duncan it effectively no longer exists.
> Do a web search read the links i sent ya.
> Sorry santa is dead dude!
>
>
> Dov
> dov@neonleatherjesus.net

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Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] A little quote from the book that was mentioned at the start.

2008-01-11T20:14:00.001-08:00

And there is currently ( for 4 or 5 years actually) a Canadian citizen being so held at yourPresident's whim!

S H

----- Original Message ----
From: Dov <dov@neonleatherjesus.net>
To: BDSM-LegalIssues@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 8:10:54 PM
Subject: Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] A little quote from the book that was mentioned at the start.

Let me spell this out for you duncan THERE ARE NO LIMITATIONS PLACED
IN THE LANGUAGE OF THE LEGISLATION ALLOWING THE PRESIDENT TO DEFINE
YOU ME OR ANYONE AN ENEMY COMBATANT THERE IS NO CRITERIA GIVEN OTHER
THAN THE PRESIDENT MAY SO SO AT HIS WHIM! Or words to that effect.

So yes duncan, Anyone!

Dov
dov@neonleatherjesu s.net

On Jan 11, 2008, at 11:03 PM, Duncan O'Neil wrote:

> Not anyone!
>
> Dov <dov@neonleatherjesu s.net> wrote: Duncan military commissions
> apply to anything military yes however by
> the president having unlimited power in defining you me or anyone as
> an enemy combatant the writ of habeas corpus is null and void.
>
> Dov
> dov@neonleatherjesu s.net
>
> On Jan 11, 2008, at 9:35 PM, Duncan O'Neil wrote:
>
> > Doesn't apply. Military Commissions do not apply outside of Military
> > posts and/or bases.
> >
> > Vicki <vicki@rjhg.com> wrote:
> >
> > Go to any of the following groups and ask about the "Military
> > Commissions Act of 2007"
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com

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Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] A little quote from the book that was mentioned at the start.

2008-01-11T20:10:00.000-08:00

Let me spell this out for you duncan THERE ARE NO LIMITATIONS PLACED
IN THE LANGUAGE OF THE LEGISLATION ALLOWING THE PRESIDENT TO DEFINE
YOU ME OR ANYONE AN ENEMY COMBATANT THERE IS NO CRITERIA GIVEN OTHER
THAN THE PRESIDENT MAY SO SO AT HIS WHIM! Or words to that effect.

So yes duncan, Anyone!

Dov
dov@neonleatherjesus.net

On Jan 11, 2008, at 11:03 PM, Duncan O'Neil wrote:

> Not anyone!
>
> Dov <dov@neonleatherjesus.net> wrote: Duncan military commissions
> apply to anything military yes however by
> the president having unlimited power in defining you me or anyone as
> an enemy combatant the writ of habeas corpus is null and void.
>
> Dov
> dov@neonleatherjesus.net
>
> On Jan 11, 2008, at 9:35 PM, Duncan O'Neil wrote:
>
> > Doesn't apply. Military Commissions do not apply outside of Military
> > posts and/or bases.
> >
> > Vicki <vicki@rjhg.com> wrote:
> >
> > Go to any of the following groups and ask about the "Military
> > Commissions Act of 2007"
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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RE: [BDSM-LegalIssues] A little quote from the book that was mentioned at the start.

2008-01-11T20:08:00.000-08:00

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gary Charpentier
> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 8:04 PM

> Does not the text of the later amendment use the word
> "repeal" in reference to the original amendment?

No. It uses the word "repealed"!

(Specifically: "The eighteenth article of amendment to the Constitution of
the United States is hereby repealed").

Malc.

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Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] A little quote from the book that was mentioned at the start.

2008-01-11T20:07:00.001-08:00

I dont make that claim Duncan it effectively no longer exists.
Do a web search read the links i sent ya.
Sorry santa is dead dude!

Dov
dov@neonleatherjesus.net

On Jan 11, 2008, at 11:03 PM, Duncan O'Neil wrote:

> The issue is you claim that Habeas no longer exists I disagree. Not
> a bit OCD in that!
>
> Dov <dov@neonleatherjesus.net> wrote: Ya think so wouldn't ya Duncan.
> Problem is we pass more laws to nullify those Constitutional
> protections rather than sanctify them.
> It doesn't matter how literal you want to be the law passed repeals,
> nullifies, sets aside habeus so just get over it and deal with the
> actual issue and not your OCD issue.
>
> Dov
> dov@neonleatherjesus.net
>
> On Jan 11, 2008, at 9:14 PM, Duncan O'Neil wrote:
>
> > Constitutional provisions can not be repealed.
> > The very first thing the Constitution says is "We the people of the
> > United States ... do ordain and establish this Constitution for the
> > United States of America." The rest of the document deals with the
> > management of the United States. Is is a short walk to assert that
> > this document applies to "The People of the United States".
> > Therefore Constitutional protections accrue to the people of the
> > United States - citizens.
> >
> > Dov <dov@neonleatherjesus.net> wrote: Duncan man with head in the
> > sand.
> >
> > Under the republican held senate and presidency the writ of habeas
> > corpus has for all intents and purposes been repealed.
> > Said presidents policy and the supreme court has decided as policy
> and
> > law that due process ONLY applies to american citizens which is the
> > direct opposite of about 200 years of constitutional law and
> practice
> > that states that it does apply.
> >
> > Now if you want we can argue my use of the word repealed since that
> > your favorite tactic Duncan
> >
> > Dov
> > dov@neonleatherjesus.net
> >
> > On Jan 11, 2008, at 9:47 AM, Duncan O'Neil wrote:
> >
> > > Habeas Corpus can not be repealed!
> > > Just where are we denying due process to immigrants or Foreign
> > > Nationals?
> > >
> > > Dov <dov@neonleatherjesus.net> wrote: The fact that we arent
> > > extending legal due process to immigrants or
> > > foreign nationals.
> > > Remember our president has repealed Habeas Corpus
> > >
> > > Dov
> > > dov@neonleatherjesus.net
> > >
> > > On Jan 10, 2008, at 11:58 PM, Vicki wrote:
> > >
> > > > At 07:03 PM 1/10/2008, Dov wrote:
> > > > >This is only a recent occurrence with our 8 years of republican
> > > > >insanity.
> > > >
> > > > What is? There were quite a few occurrences discussed.
> > > >
> > > > -Vicki-
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

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Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] A little quote from the book that was mentioned at the start.

2008-01-11T20:04:00.000-08:00

Does not the text of the later amendment use the word "repeal" in reference
to the original amendment?

On 1/11/08 6:09 PM, "Duncan O'Neil" <master_carmichael@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Prohibition was brought into being and out of being by the same process,
> amendment not by being repealed.
>
> Gary Charpentier <GldnCAGrls@aol.com> wrote:
>
> On 1/11/08 7:02 AM, "Duncan O'Neil" <master_carmichael@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Again, just to be clear Habeas Corpus can not be repealed!
>>
>
> Did the USA not enact, in the Constitution where Habeas Corpus lives, and
> repeal Prohibition? Seems to me that Habeas Corpus could be repealed. So
> could stare decisis. However if you meant that Congress and the President
> can't, you should be correct. However that depends on the Judicial branch
> not going along with it. Otherwise we will have to have a second
> Continental Congress.

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Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] A little quote from the book that was mentioned at the start.

2008-01-11T20:03:00.001-08:00

The issue is you claim that Habeas no longer exists I disagree. Not a bit OCD in that!

Dov <dov@neonleatherjesus.net> wrote: Ya think so wouldn't ya Duncan.
Problem is we pass more laws to nullify those Constitutional
protections rather than sanctify them.
It doesn't matter how literal you want to be the law passed repeals,
nullifies, sets aside habeus so just get over it and deal with the
actual issue and not your OCD issue.

Dov
dov@neonleatherjesus.net

On Jan 11, 2008, at 9:14 PM, Duncan O'Neil wrote:

> Constitutional provisions can not be repealed.
> The very first thing the Constitution says is "We the people of the
> United States ... do ordain and establish this Constitution for the
> United States of America." The rest of the document deals with the
> management of the United States. Is is a short walk to assert that
> this document applies to "The People of the United States".
> Therefore Constitutional protections accrue to the people of the
> United States - citizens.
>
> Dov <dov@neonleatherjesus.net> wrote: Duncan man with head in the
> sand.
>
> Under the republican held senate and presidency the writ of habeas
> corpus has for all intents and purposes been repealed.
> Said presidents policy and the supreme court has decided as policy and
> law that due process ONLY applies to american citizens which is the
> direct opposite of about 200 years of constitutional law and practice
> that states that it does apply.
>
> Now if you want we can argue my use of the word repealed since that
> your favorite tactic Duncan
>
> Dov
> dov@neonleatherjesus.net
>
> On Jan 11, 2008, at 9:47 AM, Duncan O'Neil wrote:
>
> > Habeas Corpus can not be repealed!
> > Just where are we denying due process to immigrants or Foreign
> > Nationals?
> >
> > Dov <dov@neonleatherjesus.net> wrote: The fact that we arent
> > extending legal due process to immigrants or
> > foreign nationals.
> > Remember our president has repealed Habeas Corpus
> >
> > Dov
> > dov@neonleatherjesus.net
> >
> > On Jan 10, 2008, at 11:58 PM, Vicki wrote:
> >
> > > At 07:03 PM 1/10/2008, Dov wrote:
> > > >This is only a recent occurrence with our 8 years of republican
> > > >insanity.
> > >
> > > What is? There were quite a few occurrences discussed.
> > >
> > > -Vicki-
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] A little quote from the book that was mentioned at the start.

2008-01-11T20:03:00.000-08:00

Not anyone!

Dov <dov@neonleatherjesus.net> wrote: Duncan military commissions apply to anything military yes however by
the president having unlimited power in defining you me or anyone as
an enemy combatant the writ of habeas corpus is null and void.

Dov
dov@neonleatherjesus.net

On Jan 11, 2008, at 9:35 PM, Duncan O'Neil wrote:

> Doesn't apply. Military Commissions do not apply outside of Military
> posts and/or bases.
>
> Vicki <vicki@rjhg.com> wrote:
>
> Go to any of the following groups and ask about the "Military
> Commissions Act of 2007"
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

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Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] A little quote from the book that was mentioned at the start.

2008-01-11T20:02:00.001-08:00

I am tempted

Dov <dov@neonleatherjesus.net> wrote: oooh i see your devolving this into who is more childish rather than
deal with the issue, you do that a lot Duncan, here and on 2257

and Yes Duncan my finger is at my nose and I thumbing it at you ;-)

Dov
dov@neonleatherjesus.net

On Jan 11, 2008, at 9:07 PM, Duncan O'Neil wrote:

> I have seen more personal attacks coming from your keyboard than all
> of the others combined. That is part of what makes your comments
> childish!
>
> Dov <dov@neonleatherjesus.net> wrote: No duncan what's childish is
> yours and other peoples inability to
> discus or deal with politics in this country with out attacking people
> who disagree with you. This is this is the second list I am on in
> which you have harassed and brow beaten people with your conservative
> rants and sheer nastiness.
> On the 2257 list you acted as a one man representative of the forces
> aimed at pushing forward that garbage of a law while professing that
> you were there as a foe of 2257.
>
> If you feel my comment was as such i feel rather sorry for since in
> order to change law and to understand its applications you have to be
> able to honestly discuss the politics and the people behind them, if
> you cant do that because a bunch of conservatives in this case dont
> want to be offended though they certainly have no troubles slamming
> anyone or anything thats liberal then you cant have a conversation.
> Its the reason I dont allow or permit the agree to disagree tactic so
> loved by conservatives this way, kill the dialogue when facts are
> inconvenient or your losing and you win since no conclusion is
> possible.
>
> Dov
> dov@neonleatherjesus.net
>
> On Jan 11, 2008, at 9:48 AM, Duncan O'Neil wrote:
>
> > That was childish!
> >
> > Dov <dov@neonleatherjesus.net> wrote: Not presidential politics its
> > a relevant fact to the discussion such
> > as it is.
> > If you prefer it this way then so that guy the one we cant talk
> about
> > you know him the one from that state which is all about being bigger
> > then you repealed habeas corpus.
> > Fell better now
> >
> > Dov
> > dov@neonleatherjesus.net
> >
> > On Jan 11, 2008, at 12:43 AM, Gary Charpentier wrote:
> >
> > > Please drop the presidential politics.
> > >
> > > On 1/10/08 9:07 PM, "Dov" <dov@neonleatherjesus.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > The fact that we arent extending legal due process to immigrants
> > or
> > > > foreign nationals.
> > > > Remember our president has repealed Habeas Corpus
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

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Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] A little quote from the book that was mentioned at the start.

2008-01-11T20:00:00.001-08:00

On 1/11/08 6:04 PM, "Duncan O'Neil" <master_carmichael@yahoo.com> wrote:

> For the third time Habeas Corpus is incapable of being repealed. So the
> assertion that it has is moot and wrong.

It was, ask anyone who was taken at gun point to an internment camp like
Manzanar in WWII! SCOTUS even gave its blessing to that sordid mess.

Might do you some good to read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prerogative_writ
"Prerogative writs are a class of writs which originate from English law.
Originally they were available only to the Crown..."

An example of such a writ, Habeas Corpus.

So the history is the King could use it to drag a prisoner in front of a
judge to get release from a corrupt official. It was a political tool to be
used by the Crown to reign in corrupt officials.

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Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] A little quote from the book that was mentioned at the start.

2008-01-11T20:00:00.000-08:00

No! The Constitution was amended with #18 and again amended with #21.

Vicki <vicki@rjhg.com> wrote: At 06:09 PM 1/11/2008, Duncan O'Neil wrote:
>Prohibition was brought into being and out of being by the same
>process, amendment not by being repealed.

You mean the amendment repealing the amendment was not repealing the amendment?

-Vicki-

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Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] A little quote from the book that was mentioned at the start.

2008-01-11T19:59:00.001-08:00

"Habeas Corpus is worth the paper it is printed on."

Is that the way you think about the US Constitution?

Vicki <vicki@rjhg.com> wrote:

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Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] A little quote from the book that was mentioned at the start.

2008-01-11T19:58:00.001-08:00

Which currently sitting President is supposed to have said something like "the constitution is just paper"?

(I am aware that this may be a myth? anyone able to confirm or not?)

S H

----- Original Message ----
From: Duncan O'Neil <master_carmichael@yahoo.com>
To: BDSM-LegalIssues@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 6:04:47 PM
Subject: Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] A little quote from the book that was mentioned at the start.

The Republicans have not had control of both the Presidency and Legislature for eight years.

For the third time Habeas Corpus is incapable of being repealed. So the assertion that it has is moot and wrong.

Dov <dov@neonleatherjesu s.net> wrote: And than you Vicki for turning it into the political crap you warned
me about LOL.
Well lets see 2 houses of congress controlled totally by the
republicans and a republican president.
Um yeah I think the shoe fits.

The statement was "Remember our president has repealed Habeas Corpus"
I didn't say "the republican president" feeling a little guilty there
then are you if you read that into that sentence.
He didn't have to sign it but he did , so much for upholding the
constitution

Dov
dov@neonleatherjesu s.net

On Jan 11, 2008, at 6:51 AM, Vicki wrote:

> At 09:07 PM 1/10/2008, Dov wrote:
> >The fact that we arent extending legal due process to immigrants or
> >foreign nationals.
> >Remember our president has repealed Habeas Corpus
>
> Ah. thanks. Btw no use blaming the Republicans. Or did ALL of the
> Democrats vote against it?
>
> meanwhile on the subject of the Patriot Act please consider visiting
> www.downsizedc. org and
> writing to our congressmen about repealing that. It would mean
> siding with the likes of Ron Paul
> but hey if we want Habeas Corpus (and I sure do) we need to convince
> our Democrat leaders who are
> currently in charge of the House and Senate to repeal the law(s) that
> repealed Habeas Corpus.
>
> This link is a direct link to a message you can send.
> http://action. downsizedc. org/wyc.php? cid=82
> This bill would amunst other things Repeal the "Military Commissions
> Act of 2007" and thereby restore the ancient right of habeas corpus
> and end legally sanctioned torture by U.S. government agents
> You can also use this link to try and get the entire Patriot act
> repealed. http://action. downsizedc. org/wyc.php? cid=66
>
> As Malc will no doubt point out there are many ramifications in
> either of these actions. While you are
> at the site study the proposals for making congress actually read the
> bills they pass.
>
> -Vicki-
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

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Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] arrests--- a question

2008-01-11T19:55:00.001-08:00

And why pay for insurance when it ain't necessary. The "undue burden" defence protects both small and big businesses from unreasonable costs.

Simple - and for those jurisdictions that don't yet apply it, simple to do so.

S H

----- Original Message ----
From: Domina Lilith Corwyn <msdomina@frugaldomme.com>
To: BDSM-LegalIssues@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 5:30:43 PM
Subject: Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] arrests--- a question

My problem with insurance opportunities is that most businesses are
already paying way too much for insurance.

Domina

Vicki wrote:
>
>
> At 04:30 PM 1/11/2008, Travis Wilson wrote:
> >ok, let me ask a question or two here. I am not sure how far apart we
> >all are when it comes to specifics, so I want to see if we can clear up.
>
> (snip)
>
> >to be clear, I am much less sympathetic to companies with 100 or more
> >employees then I am with small "mom and pop" companies. Larger companies
> >have a much greater ability to "spread the risk and costs" then do mom
> >and pop companies.
> >
> >someone mentioned "insurance" to take care of this. Not many companies
> >will have that sort of insurance.
> >
> >Travis
>
> In the codification that Malc and I were discussing the size of the
> employer was
> not specified. That would be one of the unintended consequences that
> needs discussion
> with respect to any attempt at law. A logical choice based on
> precedent in other laws
> is to exempt small companies. That precedent probably exists for the reasons
> Travis mentions about sympathetiies
>
> If there were a law then insurance opportunities would follow.
>
> -Vicki-
>
>

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Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] arrests--- a question

2008-01-11T19:52:00.001-08:00

Why base it on size of company?

Up here it is "undue burden" that excuses a small company or even a large company.

All depends on what the accommodation is and what it will cost and what impact it will have on the company.

Balancing!

All companies of less than a 100 are not equal - some will have no problem, some will go bankrupt. It ain't the size of the company that is detriminative.

S H

----- Original Message ----
From: Vicki <vicki@rjhg.com>
To: BDSM-LegalIssues@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 4:56:48 PM
Subject: Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] arrests--- a question

At 04:30 PM 1/11/2008, Travis Wilson wrote:
>ok, let me ask a question or two here. I am not sure how far apart we
>all are when it comes to specifics, so I want to see if we can clear up.

(snip)

>to be clear, I am much less sympathetic to companies with 100 or more
>employees then I am with small "mom and pop" companies. Larger companies
>have a much greater ability to "spread the risk and costs" then do mom
>and pop companies.
>
>someone mentioned "insurance" to take care of this. Not many companies
>will have that sort of insurance.
>
>Travis

In the codification that Malc and I were discussing the size of the
employer was
not specified. That would be one of the unintended consequences that
needs discussion
with respect to any attempt at law. A logical choice based on
precedent in other laws
is to exempt small companies. That precedent probably exists for the reasons
Travis mentions about sympathetiies

If there were a law then insurance opportunities would follow.

-Vicki-

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[BDSM-LegalIssues] telling evil abusers from consensual practictioners ( was Re: PEOPLE!)

2008-01-11T19:12:00.000-08:00

Thank you.

I do wish we could get more places to recognize consent. I hate being
told I'm a criminal for living my life.

I do understand why police officers have a hard time telling play from
a potential dangerous situation. The Denver Sanctuary used to have a
wonderful article on it's website explaining things from the police
officers' points of view. I'm not sure if it's still up, but it was a
very good read. Right now police do lack a real way to tell abusive
situations from consensual scenes and that is a real problem for
everyone.

It may just be me, and it's fine if it is, but I have always thought
being able to prove consent was another good reason for using a safe
word. I would think that would be a very simple way to tell; separate
the parties involved and simply ask "what was the safe word?" If the
answers match, you have proof of planning and consent.

Perhaps the idea falls apart, but at least it's a starting point.

Ms. Betty

--- In BDSM-LegalIssues@yahoogroups.com, "sassytonguemn"
<sassytongue@...> wrote:
>
> You are all entitled to your opinions...
>
> ...and logically advancing that idea - it's no wonder people think
> this list is populated with assholes!
>
> But let's review a couple of fundamental thoughts.
>
> Law, policy and politics are ALL separate things.
>
> We have an open season for politics - the two weeks preceding a
> presidential election in the US. That means we got - what - 10
> months to wait for that insanity... Please keep your politics
> confined to other lists and to your state systems (and don't get me
> wrong - we should ALL be involved in our state political systems!!)
>
> Law is related to policy is related to politics. I'm going to assume
> that everyone out there is smart - otherwise most of you wouldn't
> have the law degree in the first place. The rest of us hang around
> because we aren't too shabby in terms of brainpower...
>
> So let's keep these issues separate while acknowleding how they
> interact without going to the political hotbuttons. I know you can
> all do that.
>
> The whole issue of arrests, liability, the ability to earn a
> paycheck. It's all gray muddy turf. Insisting upon one viewpoint
> over another is somewhat pointless. What is right in the US, my not
> be in Canada; what applies in Michigan may be moot in Las Vegas.
>
> ...and all around, there appears to be plenty of holes in various
> laws.
>
> I'm advising NOW - let's not let this degenerate (further) into
> mindless personal attacks --
>
> ...because I'm going to the Ozarks on vacation next week - and I'm
> not going to be around to referee, and E is busy - so no one will be
> around to watch over approving first posts and rescuing the Japanese
> characters from the spam bin.
>
> Why not focus on something a smidge more productive like how to build
> consent as a defense for assault and/or battery. The Consent Counts
> folks are going to need that in the years ahead -- and the mind power
> here certainly should be able to come up with some tests or questions
> that can separate the evil domestic abuser from people practicing
> consentual SM.
>
> be well - and Malc - be nice!
>
> Sassy
>

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Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] A little quote from the book that was mentioned at the start.

2008-01-11T19:11:00.001-08:00

Did that not make you want to go "Third base!"

Dov
dov@neonleatherjesus.net

On Jan 11, 2008, at 9:19 PM, Vicki wrote:

> At 06:09 PM 1/11/2008, Duncan O'Neil wrote:
> >Prohibition was brought into being and out of being by the same
> >process, amendment not by being repealed.
>
> You mean the amendment repealing the amendment was not repealing the
> amendment?
>
> -Vicki-
>
>
>

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Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] A little quote from the book that was mentioned at the start.

2008-01-11T19:03:00.001-08:00

Duncan military commissions apply to anything military yes however by
the president having unlimited power in defining you me or anyone as
an enemy combatant the writ of habeas corpus is null and void.

Dov
dov@neonleatherjesus.net

On Jan 11, 2008, at 9:35 PM, Duncan O'Neil wrote:

> Doesn't apply. Military Commissions do not apply outside of Military
> posts and/or bases.
>
> Vicki <vicki@rjhg.com> wrote:
>
> Go to any of the following groups and ask about the "Military
> Commissions Act of 2007"
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

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Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] A little quote from the book that was mentioned at the start.

2008-01-11T18:54:00.003-08:00

Aww gee i am sorry is there a rule saying that using information
derived from the 5th estate on a subject isn't allowed.
Mmm nope no such rule, are you unable to read Duncan.

Dov
dov@neonleatherjesus.net

On Jan 11, 2008, at 9:15 PM, Duncan O'Neil wrote:

> Your legal cite is newspapers?
>
> Dov <dov@neonleatherjesus.net> wrote: Duncan read a newspaper.
>
> We are here on this list to discuss sm activism we are not on this
> list to play amateur law court debate games duncan.
> I believe that this has been covered on the 2257 list with cites and
> if you have any trouble using a search engine let me give you some
> keywords to use that may help
> oh wait this is to easy here are some links Duncan
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15220450/
> http://www.thejusticeproject.org/national/habeas/
> http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/50825.html
> http://www.thejusticeproject.org/press/news-updates/streamlined-procedures-act.html
>
> These samples were easily found in a simple google search using a
> misspelled set of keywords "habeas corpus repealed"
>
> Dov
> dov@neonleatherjesus.net
>
> On Jan 11, 2008, at 9:56 AM, Duncan O'Neil wrote:
>
> > But there are two ways to do that. One is the manner you chose.
> > Another is to cite the document that does what you claim happened.
> > That is the legal document that removes said protection.
> >
> > Dov <dov@neonleatherjesus.net> wrote: If discussing the law and
> > whats been done to it is verboten then there
> > isn't any point for this list at all.
> >
> > Dov
> > dov@neonleatherjesus.net
> >
> > On Jan 11, 2008, at 1:20 AM, Domina Lilith Corwyn wrote:
> >
> > > Thank you, Gary. Politics discussed on this list is just going to
> > get
> > > us a lot of nastiness. I don't like the Bush regime either, but
> this
> > > is
> > > not the place to discuss them.
> > >
> > > Domina
> > >
> > > Gary Charpentier wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Please drop the presidential politics.
> > > >
> > > > On 1/10/08 9:07 PM, "Dov" <dov@neonleatherjesus.net
> > > > <mailto:dov%40neonleatherjesus.net>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > The fact that we arent extending legal due process to
> immigrants
> > > or
> > > > > foreign nationals.
> > > > > Remember our president has repealed Habeas Corpus
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[HollandFreecycle] Digest Number 3056

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[HollandFreecycle] Digest Number 3055

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