Monday, December 31, 2007

[BDSM-LegalIssues] Re: New book -- good but disturbing

--- In BDSM-LegalIssues@yahoogroups.com, "Malcolm Weir" <malc@...> wrote:
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jay Wiseman
> > Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 10:49 AM
>
> "Amendment I
>
> Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
> prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech,
> or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble,
and to
> petition the Government for a redress of grievances
>
> How can one distinguish between firing someone because, say, the
> association of that person with a company causes the company to get
> bad publicity and so lose business (e.g. because the individual was
> the local NAMBLA spokesperson), and because they get their name all
> over the papers following their arrest for a crime that -- maybe --
> will be finally adjudicated in a few years...)"

As happens quite frequently, this right conflicts with other rights,
and therefore is not absolute. For instance, freedom of association
does not generally give you the right to exclude black people. All we
need is an analogous prohibition against discrimination against
presumed innocent people until they have been actually been convicted.

> > p.s. The author of the book notes that privacy is, in most of
> > Europe, much more strongly protected than it is here. This
> > includes things like corporate access to arrest records. Time for
> > a bit of legislation, methinks.
>
> More like a repeal of the whole Freedom of Association thing...

No, more like prohibiting release of the data in the first place.

BTW, I'm not even sure how a company would get such data in the first
place right now. A few years ago, I had to file a police report, and
later needed to get a copy of it for my bank's anti-fraud division.
Even though I had identified the suspect, the police insisted on
blanking out the name until the person was convicted. My bank wasn't
happy, but I believe that this was indeed the proper procedure.

If corporations have way to bypass this kind of protection that is not
available to ordinary citizens, I would be very seriously concerned.

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[BDSM-LegalIssues] Re: New book -- good but disturbing

--- In BDSM-LegalIssues@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Wiseman"
<jaywiseman@...> wrote:
>
> --- In BDSM-LegalIssues@yahoogroups.com, "Leigha Fleming"
> <leigha@> wrote:
> >
> > Jay-
> >
> > Every person who comes to work for the company I do (I'm the
> corporate controller where I work) signs a form
> > that allows us to do a background check which include a credit,
> criminal, prior employment etc. checks.
> >
> > In my experience- these forms are pretty standard for almost all
> businesses.
> >
> > My real world work position includes protecting the corporation I
> work for, and for liability reasons as well as many other reasons
> > we do not hire people who have criminal histories. There is of
> course latitiude-- no one is going to lose out on a position because
> > he's had an arrest 20 years ago when he was in college for some
> minor misdemeanor.. But, given the choice between a potential
> > employee who doesn't have a criminal history and one who does, I'll
> hire the one without every time. There are simply too many
> > potential problems liability wise to knowingly hire someone with a
> record that puts either the company's employees or assets at
> > risk. And yes, we've fired employees for being arrested (but not
> yet convicted) for violent felonies.
>
> Wow. Freakin' wow. There it is, in black and white for all to see.
>
> Um, let me guess. As a matter of corporate policy, you do, of
> course, routinely re-hire those fired employees, with full back pay
> and benefits, who have been arrested for violent felonies if they
> subsequently have their original charges dropped, or reduced to a non-
> violent felony, or reduced to a misdemeanor, or acquitted, right?

What is more, the company may actually expose itself to a
discrimination lawsuit here. If the fired person was black, the effect
of such a policy would be racial discrimination. When it comes to
discrimination cases, my understanding is that it is illegal
regardless of intent, when it just simply results in affecting one
group more than another. Given that the arrest rate for blacks is much
higher than for whites, that might well be the case.

Obviously, the Alito/Roberts court wouldn't buy such an argument :-(

> > I'm surprised you feel like my volunteer work with and for NCSF is
> relevant in this matter at all.

I'm blown away that somebody at that level of the NCSF can in her day
job be that incompatible with what the NCSF stands for. To me, this
undermines the credibility of the NCSF to a very substantial extent.

Maybe you can bring that question up at the next NCSF board meeting?

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[HollandFreecycle] Digest Number 3038

Messages In This Digest (25 Messages)

1.: offer toastmaster sandwich maker w/paperwork From: wgallen46

2.: Picked up: Pink baby book From: Jennifer

3.: Offer: 2007 garden catalogs From: Shannon

4.: Offer: Queen mattress From: see_but_not_seen

5a.: wanted: bed sheets From: austinjay2003

6.: PPU: Non working Microwave From: Lori

7.: Needed: boys size 14-16 pants From: lissa_marie2003

8.: Wanted Digital PH tester for hobby From: airmailonly

9.: Wanted Digital PPM (Parts Per Million) meter for testing water From: airmailonly

10.: full size sheets From: Loretta

11.: offer: foreign language books From: retiredsfc1997

12.: Wanted : Wheelchair and Yarn From: Gina Wesseldyke

13a.: wanted: computer desk From: jessaustin2003

14.: TAKEN: cedar swingset From: Catherine Ristola

15.: taken couch and table thanku From: lynnanna1221

16.: Taken: Queen Mattress From: see_but_not_seen

17.: Offer: Misc. Christmas items From: catiehauch

18a.: Offer: kids toys From: Jenny

19.: Offer:kids clothes (mostly girls) From: Jenny

20.: PPU: Queen Mattress From: see_but_not_seen

21a.: taken From: wgallen46

22a.: OFFER-STUFFED ANIMALS From: JHorten616@aol.com

23.: Taken: kids clothes From: Jenny

24.: PPU-STUFFED ANIMALS From: JHorten616@aol.com

25.: wanted full-size box spring From: Di

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Messages

1.: offer toastmaster sandwich maker w/paperwork

Posted by: "wgallen46" wgallen@gmail.com wgallen46

Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:53 am (PST)

this is a repost since this item was not picked up..first reply can
have it..only here until noon today.very nice condition hardly used
toastmaster sandwich maker with the paperwork

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2.: Picked up: Pink baby book

Posted by: "Jennifer" dolphingirl285@yahoo.com dolphingirl285

Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:53 am (PST)

Gone baby book thanks everyone who replied

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3.: Offer: 2007 garden catalogs

Posted by: "Shannon" shay4art@sbcglobal.net shaycampau

Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:55 am (PST)

I have 5 (maybe more) garden catalogs. If you can use them to cut up
for pictures please take them. Pick up is in Holland, Hoover and
16th. Please let me know and I will give more specific directions.
Have a wonderful new year and be safe tonight!

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4.: Offer: Queen mattress

Posted by: "see_but_not_seen" see_but_not_seen@yahoo.com see_but_not_seen

Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:55 am (PST)

Queen pillowtop mattress, gently used. Mattress only, no box spring.
Reply with time you WILL pick up and I will respond with address. Must
be picked up today. North side of Holland. You will need a truck or
large van.

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5a.: wanted: bed sheets

Posted by: "austinjay2003" austinjay2003@yahoo.com austinjay2003

Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:56 am (PST)

looking for queen size fitted be sheets

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6.: PPU: Non working Microwave

Posted by: "Lori" babycakes19807@yahoo.com babycakes19807

Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:56 am (PST)

If it's not gone by Friday I will repost.
Thank you

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7.: Needed: boys size 14-16 pants

Posted by: "lissa_marie2003" lissa_marie2003@yahoo.com lissa_marie2003

Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:59 am (PST)

My sister is in need of pants for her son. Her husband lost his job a
few months back and money is tight. If anyone can help, it would be
greatly appreciated. Thank you :)

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8.: Wanted Digital PH tester for hobby

Posted by: "airmailonly" airmailonly@yahoo.com airmailonly

Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:04 am (PST)

Wanted Digital PH tester for hobby

Looking for a digital Ph meter for testing water conditions. Would be
happy to pick up.

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9.: Wanted Digital PPM (Parts Per Million) meter for testing water

Posted by: "airmailonly" airmailonly@yahoo.com airmailonly

Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:07 am (PST)

Wanted Digital PPM (Parts Per Million) meter for testing water

Looking for a digital PPM (Parts Per Million) meter for testing
water. Would be happy to pick up.

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10.: full size sheets

Posted by: "Loretta" craftermom56@yahoo.com craftermom56

Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:27 am (PST)

My daughter just called wanting to know if I had any full size sheets
to spare for the full size bed they just put up for their 4 year old
twins. I don't, so thought I would check here to see if there is
anyone out there who has full size sheets that they would like to get
rid of! Thank you in advance for all of your help!

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11.: offer: foreign language books

Posted by: "retiredsfc1997" retiredsfc1997@yahoo.com retiredsfc1997

Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:41 am (PST)

I have a copy of Barron's 501 Latin Verbs, and a copy of Barron's 501
French Verbs for the right person.

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12.: Wanted : Wheelchair and Yarn

Posted by: "Gina Wesseldyke" gwesseldyke@ameritech.net gina_wesseldyke

Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:41 am (PST)

Hello all I am searching for a wheel chair for my mother, due to
congestive heart failure she can no longer walk thru stores to go
shopping and if the store does not offer one she is stuck in the car
waiting. I am also looking for yarn for her even scraps would be
fine, she makes lap throws for commission on aging and blankets for
special needs babys. If anyone can help please let me know.
Thanks to all for taking the time to read this post.
Gina

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13a.: wanted: computer desk

Posted by: "jessaustin2003" jessaustin2003@yahoo.com jessaustin2003

Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:41 am (PST)

we are looking for a computer desk that at least has drawers in it.
something not too big either since we have a small place to put it in.
if you have pics that would be great. thanks

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14.: TAKEN: cedar swingset

Posted by: "Catherine Ristola" catherinerb@yahoo.com catherinerb

Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:41 am (PST)

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15.: taken couch and table thanku

Posted by: "lynnanna1221" lynnanna1221@yahoo.com lynnanna1221

Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:00 am (PST)

need a loveseat due to moving to a one bedroom apt soon thanku

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16.: Taken: Queen Mattress

Posted by: "see_but_not_seen" see_but_not_seen@yahoo.com see_but_not_seen

Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:00 am (PST)

The Queen mattress has been picked up. Thanks for the prompt pick up.

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17.: Offer: Misc. Christmas items

Posted by: "catiehauch" catiehauch@yahoo.com catiehauch

Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:00 am (PST)

I have a bag of misc. christmas ornaments, replacement bulbs, candles
and tinsel. Pick up is on the south side of Holland. Must take all.

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18a.: Offer: kids toys

Posted by: "Jenny" jenifire9850@yahoo.com jenifire9850

Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:00 am (PST)

I got some toys from a fellow freecyler and also cleaned out our toy box. Must take all, pick
up near 88th and Adams in Zeeland

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19.: Offer:kids clothes (mostly girls)

Posted by: "Jenny" jenifire9850@yahoo.com jenifire9850

Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:00 am (PST)

I got some clothes from a fellow freecycler and went through what I wanted and am
freecycling the rest. Most are play clothes, some stains/rips. Pick up in Zeeland near 88th
and Adams. Size 12m-6x. Mostly girls clothes

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20.: PPU: Queen Mattress

Posted by: "see_but_not_seen" see_but_not_seen@yahoo.com see_but_not_seen

Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:01 am (PST)

Queen pillowtop mattress is pending pickup, thanks for the interest

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21a.: taken

Posted by: "wgallen46" wgallen@gmail.com wgallen46

Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:33 am (PST)

the sandwich maker and all other items are gone

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22a.: OFFER-STUFFED ANIMALS

Posted by: "JHorten616@aol.com" JHorten616@aol.com mommyofmanykids75

Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:58 pm (PST)

first off please only email me if want to take them off my hands nothing
more. I have no vehicle to drop them anyplace.. thanks

I had someone say wanted them and still hasn't showed up so please if would
like this good size bag of stuffed animals for your kiddie please email
me..thanks so much

Live on N. side of Holland

Jamie

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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23.: Taken: kids clothes

Posted by: "Jenny" jenifire9850@yahoo.com jenifire9850

Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:59 pm (PST)

Thanks for the FAST pick up!!!!

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24.: PPU-STUFFED ANIMALS

Posted by: "JHorten616@aol.com" JHorten616@aol.com mommyofmanykids75

Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:42 pm (PST)

**************************************See AOL's top rated recipes
(http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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25.: wanted full-size box spring

Posted by: "Di" diawc@yahoo.com diawc

Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:58 pm (PST)

Willing to pick up. Do not need the mattress

---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

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Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] Re: New book -- good but disturbing

Sent this earlier this morning but after about 6 hours it has not appeared while other messages have been appearing. So sending it again. If it shows twice blame yahoo or the internet!

S H

You might be interested in how some more enlightened jurisdictions deal with this, so here is the relevant section of the British Columbia Human Rights Code - quite a few other provinces have similar sections.
(emphasis added)

S H

13.(1)A person must not
(a)refuse to employ or refuse to continue to employ a person, or
(b)discriminate against a person regarding employment or any term or condition of employment
because of the race, colour, ancestry, place of origin, political belief, religion, marital status, family status, physical or mental disability, sex, sexual orientation or age of that person or because that person has been convicted of a criminal or summary conviction offence that is unrelated to the employment or to the intended employment of that person.
(2)An employment agency must not refuse to refer a person for employment for any reason mentioned in subsection (1).

Looking for a X-Mas gift? Everybody needs a Flickr Pro Account.

http://www.flickr.com/gift/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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RE: [BDSM-LegalIssues] Re: New book -- good but disturbing

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jay Wiseman
> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 10:49 AM

> > My real world work position includes protecting the corporation I
> work for, and for liability reasons as well as many other reasons
> > we do not hire people who have criminal histories. There is of
> course latitiude-- no one is going to lose out on a position because
> > he's had an arrest 20 years ago when he was in college for some
> minor misdemeanor.. But, given the choice between a potential
> > employee who doesn't have a criminal history and one who does, I'll
> hire the one without every time. There are simply too many
> > potential problems liability wise to knowingly hire someone with a
> record that puts either the company's employees or assets at
> > risk. And yes, we've fired employees for being arrested (but not
> yet convicted) for violent felonies.
>
> Wow. Freakin' wow. There it is, in black and white for all to see.
>
> Um, let me guess. As a matter of corporate policy, you do, of
> course, routinely re-hire those fired employees, with full back pay
> and benefits, who have been arrested for violent felonies if they
> subsequently have their original charges dropped, or reduced to a non-
> violent felony, or reduced to a misdemeanor, or acquitted, right?
>
> Your company has had such a "rehire and restore" policy for years,
> right?
>
> The alternative suggests that a person who is *completely factually
> innocent* of such a charge nonetheless summarily loses their job with
> your company with no recourse (ah, the joys of "at will" employment),
> and further suggests that you are just fine with that. After
> all, "can't take a chance" right?

"Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,
or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
petition the Government for a redress of grievances

How can one distinguish between firing someone because, say, the association
of that person with a company causes the company to get bad publicity and so
lose business (e.g. because the individual was the local NAMBLA
spokesperson), and because they get their name all over the papers following
their arrest for a crime that -- maybe -- will be finally adjudicated in a
few years...)"

Maybe some folk would be happier if corporations couldn't fire anyone at
all... (although I tend to believe those who think that are those who are
incompetent or unemployable...)

[ Snip ]

> p.s. The author of the book notes that privacy is, in most of
> Europe, much more strongly protected than it is here. This includes
> things like corporate access to arrest records. Time for a bit of
> legislation, methinks.

More like a repeal of the whole Freedom of Association thing...

Malc.

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How to Get Poor

Monday, December 31, 2007

[BDSM-LegalIssues] Re: New book -- good but disturbing

[BDSM-LegalIssues] Re: New book -- good but disturbing

[HollandFreecycle] Digest Number 3038

Messages In This Digest (25 Messages)

Messages

Posted by: "wgallen46" wgallen@gmail.com wgallen46

Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:53 am (PST)

Posted by: "Jennifer" dolphingirl285@yahoo.com dolphingirl285

Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:53 am (PST)

Posted by: "Shannon" shay4art@sbcglobal.net shaycampau

Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:55 am (PST)

Posted by: "see_but_not_seen" see_but_not_seen@yahoo.com see_but_not_seen

Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:55 am (PST)

Posted by: "austinjay2003" austinjay2003@yahoo.com austinjay2003

Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:56 am (PST)

Posted by: "Lori" babycakes19807@yahoo.com babycakes19807

Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:56 am (PST)

Posted by: "lissa_marie2003" lissa_marie2003@yahoo.com lissa_marie2003

Mon Dec 31, 2007 7:59 am (PST)

Posted by: "airmailonly" airmailonly@yahoo.com airmailonly

Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:04 am (PST)

Posted by: "airmailonly" airmailonly@yahoo.com airmailonly

Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:07 am (PST)

Posted by: "Loretta" craftermom56@yahoo.com craftermom56

Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:27 am (PST)

Posted by: "retiredsfc1997" retiredsfc1997@yahoo.com retiredsfc1997

Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:41 am (PST)

Posted by: "Gina Wesseldyke" gwesseldyke@ameritech.net gina_wesseldyke

Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:41 am (PST)

Posted by: "jessaustin2003" jessaustin2003@yahoo.com jessaustin2003

Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:41 am (PST)

Posted by: "Catherine Ristola" catherinerb@yahoo.com catherinerb

Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:41 am (PST)

Posted by: "lynnanna1221" lynnanna1221@yahoo.com lynnanna1221

Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:00 am (PST)

Posted by: "see_but_not_seen" see_but_not_seen@yahoo.com see_but_not_seen

Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:00 am (PST)

Posted by: "catiehauch" catiehauch@yahoo.com catiehauch

Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:00 am (PST)

Posted by: "Jenny" jenifire9850@yahoo.com jenifire9850

Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:00 am (PST)

Posted by: "Jenny" jenifire9850@yahoo.com jenifire9850

Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:00 am (PST)

Posted by: "see_but_not_seen" see_but_not_seen@yahoo.com see_but_not_seen

Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:01 am (PST)

Posted by: "wgallen46" wgallen@gmail.com wgallen46

Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:33 am (PST)

Posted by: "JHorten616@aol.com" JHorten616@aol.com mommyofmanykids75

Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:58 pm (PST)

Posted by: "Jenny" jenifire9850@yahoo.com jenifire9850

Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:59 pm (PST)

Posted by: "JHorten616@aol.com" JHorten616@aol.com mommyofmanykids75

Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:42 pm (PST)

Posted by: "Di" diawc@yahoo.com diawc

Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:58 pm (PST)

Re: [BDSM-LegalIssues] Re: New book -- good but disturbing

RE: [BDSM-LegalIssues] Re: New book -- good but disturbing

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